we need more users
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You're right! That's perfect! that's what i was looking for, now i have a name to it. thank you. i think it would maybe work well enough if the sidebar could link to related communities?
We have an open issue for this: https://github.com/LemmyNet/lemmy/issues/5871
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I'm a reddit user and that's also where I first heard about lemmy the first time.
Yesterday I decided to give it a try, current events pushed me away from everything American and so I thought it was about time.
I searched for something like 'lemmy getting started' and landed on this site:
https://join-lemmy.org/docs/users/01-getting-started.htmlSo the first greeting is a wall of text. After I read through it, I found myself here:
https://join-lemmy.org/instancesNow I got a bunch of options with no real way to evaluate what's what. I spent some time there looking through the options and didn't really know what to choose and what the impact would be. I used a search engine again to look for some opinions about the biggest ones which lead me nowhere, mostly.
So I kinda gave up and selected programming.dev because that's close enough to what I do professionally. I clicked on join and was presented with this
https://programming.dev/signupSo I don't know if that differs from instance to instance, but you need a moment to process this. The first few fields are obvious but then it starts to get a little weird. Instead of a checkbox or even implicit accepting of TOS and privacy policy (by registering here you agree to....) you have to take or copy paste that exact sentence into that answer box with a preview button(?) and then fill in the captcha. After that you are told that your registration needs to be approved manually and that there is no notification about that so you have to manually check from time to time whether your are able to login or not.
But it didn't end here. Because I found that the webui wasn't that great on mobile, I wanted an Android app. So I ended up here: https://join-lemmy.org/apps
And yet again was confronted with a bunch options I somehow had to evaluate. I'm still in the process finding an app I really like.
Now I know this is no rocket science, and having options is a good thing usually.
But still considering the average usually not tech savvy user, all of that is too much by quite a bit. That's overwhelming for the majority of people.
This whole thing needs to be a 10 second streamlined process. There should be one button to get you started. The instance selection site tells you: 'You can access all content in the lemmyverse from any server, so it doesn't matter which one you choose.'
So if that's the case, why bother the user with it? I admit I know jack shit about the fediverse, but if I were to design such a thing, I'd separate the IdP (identity provider) from the service/content providers. Have a couple of them redundantly, hosted by different parties so one entity can not shut down everything. Let the user register once, replicate that identity across the IdPs and let some interest selection wizard determine which content instances the use should be added to.
I know that's a big architecture change and will never happen. So maybe have that one obvious registration routine for a user and choose a first instance for the user based on interests or randomly (from a curated list to prevent users landing on some extreme instances) if the user can not be bothered to fill in their interests.
Have one default app which is good and recommended that. Let the app have sensible defaults (like the sorting thing), present most popular content first to hook the user.
Let the user look for alternatives later if they want to do that.
Don't let the user do all the homework upfront before they even know whether they even care and if it's worth the effort. Most people simply won't do it.
PS. Nope I do not know about 'Piefed'. I'll check it out later. It wasn't mentioned on all that sites that I looked at and that's part of the problem.
That's just my 2 cents.
After that you are told that your registration needs to be approved manually and that there is no notification about that so you have to manually check from time to time whether your are able to login or not.
This is wrong or outdated, Lemmy definitely sends an email once your registration is approved or denied (if you provided an email during registration). Worth contacting the programming.dev admins to change this line.
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I'm a very new user who wanted to give this a chance, here are the friction points from my point of view:
- The onboarding is way too complicated for the average user. A huge part of this is that there are 100 ways to do it. Before you even can start to do anything you have to investigate and then decide on what and how to do it. And even then there is no guidance at all, you are given options and then you can either go and do some research again or try them one by one. You lose at least 90% of the users here already. It doesn't help that fediverse users try to downplay this issue.
- Content discovery sucks ass. My feed stayed mostly the same since I started using Lemmy. I'm presented the same shit over and over again. I'm not sure if it's something that I do wrong, if there is just no content or if that's a side effect of 'no tracking at all' but either way the experience is just bad
- Someone in here already said it, but 'Lemmy' is a horrendous name. That alone was the reason why I didn't bother to try it at all for a long time. Only recent events pushed me towards it but tbh I'm not sure I'll stay.
In short the user experience is abysmal.
The onboarding is way too complicated for the average user. A huge part of this is that there are 100 ways to do it. Before you even can start to do anything you have to investigate and then decide on what and how to do it. And even then there is no guidance at all, you are given options and then you can either go and do some research again or try them one by one. You lose at least 90% of the users here already. It doesn’t help that fediverse users try to downplay this issue.
The solution to this is that people should not recommend Lemmy, but a specific instance such as programming.dev (depending on the audience). The Lemmy software and join-lemmy.org are mainly targeted at potential instance admins, or those who are already familiar with the Fediverse.
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I am also new (coming from Reddit) and it was confusing that there was no register button anywhere.
There is a "Join" button which goes directly to the registration page of the respective instance. Would it be clearer to rename this? Other than that I'm also happy to make improvements if you have concrete suggestions.
Edit: Made a PR to rename Join to Sign Up: https://github.com/LemmyNet/joinlemmy-site/pull/509
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I believe they publicly stated they removed .world from it to prevent centralization because everyone was going to a single instance, thus defeating the fediverse purpose. But this is all from memory and I might be wrong
The logic it uses is to hide any instances with more than 30% of all active users to prevent centralization, just like you say. There are also some other filters like requiring at least 5 active users.
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Yes, that's correct. But I'm not aware of lemmy.ml mods running it is all I mean. That it randomises the instances for newbies on first view isn't great either.
Good point, I made a PR to use biased random sort again that we had in the past, so larger instances are always shown near the top.
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The logic it uses is to hide any instances with more than 30% of all active users to prevent centralization, just like you say. There are also some other filters like requiring at least 5 active users.
Understandable but something needs to be done to lower the barrier of entry of new users joining.
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The onboarding is way too complicated for the average user. A huge part of this is that there are 100 ways to do it. Before you even can start to do anything you have to investigate and then decide on what and how to do it. And even then there is no guidance at all, you are given options and then you can either go and do some research again or try them one by one. You lose at least 90% of the users here already. It doesn’t help that fediverse users try to downplay this issue.
The solution to this is that people should not recommend Lemmy, but a specific instance such as programming.dev (depending on the audience). The Lemmy software and join-lemmy.org are mainly targeted at potential instance admins, or those who are already familiar with the Fediverse.
Well, you are technically correct. That would've made it easier for me. But I see a few problems with that:
How are you gonna make sure people start doing this?
And even more important: If people start doing this, it might actually harm the network IMHO.
I personally knew that something like Lemmy exists at all because I saw multiple people on Reddit recommending it as an alternative to Reddit. Often enough that I was able to remember this after some time.
Now if people recommended programming.dev in one sub, literature.cafe in another and discuss.online in a third - there is no way I would've remembered any of it and most likely wouldn't know that it belongs to the same network. Looking at them individually emphasizes the feeling that those are some ultra niche little sites with hardly any users on them.
Just my gut feeling, anyway.
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We have an open issue for this: https://github.com/LemmyNet/lemmy/issues/5871
Very nice
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There is a "Join" button which goes directly to the registration page of the respective instance. Would it be clearer to rename this? Other than that I'm also happy to make improvements if you have concrete suggestions.
Edit: Made a PR to rename Join to Sign Up: https://github.com/LemmyNet/joinlemmy-site/pull/509
Well, I don't understand exactly how it works yet. My steps were to search in the Play Store for Lemmy, but there were multiple apps and all had different names. When I downloaded Boost now, there was not directly a register or sign up button. So it's probably an issue of Boost.
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I've been one of the people saying "we don't need more users. we need quality over quantity" and i was wrong.
the way it's going, lemmy needs active users who post content sothat the network stays relevant. networks like the fediverse benefit from network effects and that means that if we have more users, that improves the value and quality of the fediverse overall.
So please, everyone, when you can, make advertisement for the fediverse in your personal area. Go talk to friends, make attractive stickers and put them everywhere, stuff like that. We would all benefit from it.
edit: source for the graph
I moved to Mbin, and I know quite a few people moved to Piefed, so you need to take that into account
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Hard agree there - growth at any costs should not be our motto, just improvement in terms of features for our own sakes, and if people enjoy that and want to join us, then that's wonderful as well.
Though at one point we had 55k active users, and now we "only" have ~35k, so it seems like it has gone down over the years. Though to be fair, then it cycled back upwards, then downwards, then upwards again, then downwards - and yet always decreasing from that peak of 55k to where we are now, an overall negative trend. Even just six months ago we had 41k, a loss of ~15% now compared ot then (correspondingly, PieFed only has ~2k users total across all instances, so this loss of 6k for Lemmy was nowhere near balanced by a corresponding increase in PieFed as would be explained by a migration effect).
But even if you are fully right, and this all reflects relative stagnation, that's still not a good thing imho, given the waves of Reddit migrants that we've seen coming here during the same time-period. It means that in roughly equal numbers to new people joining we are also losing a LOT of people, to parts unknown (perhaps they went back to Reddit, as many claim to have done in r/RedditAlternatives, or perhaps they moved instead to BlueSky?).
I think that every platform will reach sort of an equilibrium during its lifetime. That relative "plateau" may last for months, years or even longer than that, but I think it will always be reached after its peak.
imho the height of that peak and plateau speak to the overall popularity potential of the platform. Which is just that. A potential to attract masses. Whether maximizing this is a core goal is a different question.
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Well, I don't understand exactly how it works yet. My steps were to search in the Play Store for Lemmy, but there were multiple apps and all had different names. When I downloaded Boost now, there was not directly a register or sign up button. So it's probably an issue of Boost.
There is nothing preventing apps from providing a registration flow. For example Voyager has it. I suppose the problem is again which instance to choose for signup. You can discuss this in https://lemmy.world/c/boostforlemmy or https://lemmy.world/c/lemmyapps.
As for multiple Lemmy apps being available: Most of the current Lemmy users came here in 2023 when Reddit locked down the API and killed third-party apps. Thats why a lot of apps are now available, and everyone can decide for himself which one he prefers.
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Well, you are technically correct. That would've made it easier for me. But I see a few problems with that:
How are you gonna make sure people start doing this?
And even more important: If people start doing this, it might actually harm the network IMHO.
I personally knew that something like Lemmy exists at all because I saw multiple people on Reddit recommending it as an alternative to Reddit. Often enough that I was able to remember this after some time.
Now if people recommended programming.dev in one sub, literature.cafe in another and discuss.online in a third - there is no way I would've remembered any of it and most likely wouldn't know that it belongs to the same network. Looking at them individually emphasizes the feeling that those are some ultra niche little sites with hardly any users on them.
Just my gut feeling, anyway.
That is true. I made a post just now to gather suggestions for improving the website, please have a look and comment if you have any ideas: https://lemmyverse.link/lemmy.ml/post/41719890
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they are separate, but not huge
They seem doing fine, especially PieFed.
