we need more users
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This. It was never about not having gatekeepers, it was always about being the gatekeeper instead.
The gatekeepers of these spaces are not meaningfully different from reddit.
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Yeah, i unfortunately don't agree with the tankie censorship of people who disapprove of dictatorships.
Cowbee you especially are a gross person when it comes to licking authoritarian boot.
I'm not Cowbee, I just appreciate Cowbee, as my username says. Cowbee is the opposite of supporting dictatorships, he's a socialist supporting the struggle against western imperialism.
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Hexbear is tankie space
Yes, that's why it's inclusive of trans and bans transphobia, that's a good thing! An internet space without overt Zionism, transphobia... It feels great
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Yes. And its been detrimental to the growth of the fediverse.
Wait, I'm lost. You're saying that most of the fediverse federating with each other has been detrimental?
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As much I love the idea of Lemmy, I've noticed myself I was drawn back to Reddit. Why? Because it has a larger community, of course, but (and please don't shoot me for this), Reddit's algo and rewards. Yes, the achievements gallery is stupid, but it works.
The folks building Lemmy investigating how to increase engagement, this is one factor.
Niche active communities for sure.
I am also banned from reddit and can't contribute. You'd imagine that would pull me more towards lemmy, but just getting the novelty of so many new posts makes it enticing even if I am not interacting.
Instagram and tiktok benefit less from its algo imo than they do from its numerous creators. The novelty drives people. It's complicated I am sure but actively this is what I think about when I reach for these platforms.
I definitely think the trick is having innumerable amount of content.
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Eh, if the original instance removes the CSAM - the ban and removal federates out to everywhere else, so this isn’t always true.
But if it doesn't, then other instances removing the content on their side doesn't federate. So you can either trust every instance that you federate with with your legal security, or you will have to moderate everything yourself as well, just in case someone missed something.
Down the line, the answer here would be for the federative structure to change so that an instance only hosts its own local content, and doesn’t need duplicate content viewed from external instances.
This would be extremely important, but I don't know if such a low level conceptual change can still be performed with a reasonable amount of work. Remember, for such a change you need to get every instance on board. That would be difficult now, and only more difficult later.
Tbh, it would have been much smarter if the setup would be basically a bunch of independent phpBB-like boards with federated single-sign-on and an app that transparently connects you to whatever instance hosts the content you are looking at.
That’s not why lemm.ee closed down. It wasn’t financial.
No, it was specifically because of the moderation issue: https://lemmy.ca/post/45390962
But if it doesn’t, then other instances removing the content on their side doesn’t federate. So you can either trust every instance that you federate with with your legal security, or you will have to moderate everything yourself as well, just in case someone missed something.
Sure, you're right there - but an instance that kept having problems with removing CSAM would find itself defederated.
This would be extremely important, but I don’t know if such a low level conceptual change can still be performed with a reasonable amount of work. Remember, for such a change you need to get every instance on board. That would be difficult now, and only more difficult later.
Well it would be built in from Lemmy or Piefed. The devs would have to spearhead it. But were the load ever to get to that point, I suspect that would be the obvious move.
No, it was specifically because of the moderation issue: https://lemmy.ca/post/45390962
Yes, so not financial. You seemed to be implying it was financial.
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Growth for growth sake is one of the most toxic concepts in modern society.
Hey Bro i think you forgot to wear this
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Your argument is disingenuous. You appeal to "math", btw without demonstrating any proof of that math, but then you also used words like "destructive" and "crippled", which are not mathematical in the slightest! Your argument devolves into just-trust-me-bro and i-am-very-smart. Surely you have some crypto that you would like to sell me as well?
Yes defederation makes a network less fully connected, but I suggest you reexamine the principles of the federated model, which does not require a fully connected network to begin with, and in fact one of its chief strengths lies in how it can handle such disconnection points. The only way it "cripples" anything is when an edgelord teenager no longer has a captive audience "forced" to receive their spew - yes, their feewings do get hurt, but the rest of the network gets stronger for having cut them out. Like a cancer that must be sacrificed for the health of the rest of the body to live.
CONSENT MUST MATTER, or we have no freedoms at all. They have the right to speak, and I demand the right to not have to listen to it, if I do not want to.
The fact that their admins are operating in bad faith and cannot control the toxicity of their members is not my own fault, but my response is under my own control. Even, as we literally see happening, if that means leaving the Threadiverse entirely.
Also, don't miss the point where the Lemmy devs have left no other option besides full defederation, if you truly do not want to receive messages from people on that instance. In theory this could have been a different conversation if the "instance blocking" actually functioned as advertised, but instead it allows users from those instances to read, vote on, and reply to your content, and send you DMs, which even trigger notifications, the same as any unblocked user. That is no kind of "blocking" at all, so alrighty then, full defederation is the only option provided by the developers that will achieve the desired effect. (But this argument only affects the practicality of whatever solution is deployed, while I still think that consent should matter hence defederation should be allowed even on purely theoretical grounds. An instance admin should not be "forced" to receive messages that they do not want - CSAM being an absolutely perfect example of that.)
You are railing about moral issues I don't even disagree with. But there are basic, physical properties that networks have, that are scale dependent. There is no moralizing around that issue. And de-federation can and does occur all the time, its basically the norm between the major instances. And that has fundamentally crippled the growth of the fediverse (at least the lemmy side).
Just because I'm not bothering putting effort into responding to a slathering wall of text like you've composed, does nothing to change the fact that social networks, and actually, all large networked systems from the internet to a fungal colony, all base their survival in scale. I've done the work and shared it with those I've deemed worthy, here, regarding the network analyses I've built to run on the fediverse. Here's a hint: you aren't one of those.
Without scale, networked systems collapse. Without scale, complexity can't emerge.
A big part of this is architectural and we had that discussion years ago here. There are design constraints built into the original envisioning of lemmy that pretty much force these limitations. The biggest issue being that each lemmy instance is built to effectively be an "entire clone" of a reddit like system. The second is activity pub related, in that users can not "migrate" their accounts or community's to new instance, neither can we fork, clone, or merge a community.
The result is that we end up with duplicated communities, balkanized content, and an overall reduction in activity, which further suppress growth. There is no disagreement that the de-federation issue contributed directly to Lemmy's decline. We were all here for it.
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Yes, that's why it's inclusive of trans and bans transphobia, that's a good thing! An internet space without overt Zionism, transphobia... It feels great
Yeah, but the russia and china authoritarian love and glazing sucks.
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Yeah, but the russia and china authoritarian love and glazing sucks.
People over on Hexbear don't love Russia. I myself have posted news articles on Russian authorities enjailing marxists and they got widely popular in Hexbear.
As for China, I'd argue they're not more authoritarian than most developed countries. I'm a Spaniard, my state has political prisoners for pro-Catalonian independence actions such as promoting a referendum for independence. The most leftist party to appear in decades fell into oblivion recently because the state police apparatus manufactured false evidence of corrupt funding of said party (Podemos) by Venezuela and Iran, and leaked these false police reports to all media, which echoed it nonstop for months.
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When this post is two days old and still on the very top of my feed you know that it's either a ghost town or the sorting algo doesn't work.
It's just less busy. So conversations on one topic go on for longer, is that such a bad thing?
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People over on Hexbear don't love Russia. I myself have posted news articles on Russian authorities enjailing marxists and they got widely popular in Hexbear.
As for China, I'd argue they're not more authoritarian than most developed countries. I'm a Spaniard, my state has political prisoners for pro-Catalonian independence actions such as promoting a referendum for independence. The most leftist party to appear in decades fell into oblivion recently because the state police apparatus manufactured false evidence of corrupt funding of said party (Podemos) by Venezuela and Iran, and leaked these false police reports to all media, which echoed it nonstop for months.
Can you make posts/comments criticizing china, russia and the various horrific shit perpetrated by dictators of said country?
My one issue with tankies is that. Otherwise I openly welcome leftist ideas.
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I just don't get why people would stay in reddit when lemmy exist
Reddit is bots. People are on tiktok or Instagram or whatever.
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Wait, I'm lost. You're saying that most of the fediverse federating with each other has been detrimental?
Sorry, I misspoke. The largest instances of lemmy are have been defederated, specifically world and ml.
The only argument I'm making is that almost all defederation is negatively impactful to fediverse growth.
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too complicated
This is an Us problem. Download jerboa. Create an account on world. Done. Simple as Reddit. We make it complicated by explaining federation, options, different instances, etc. None of that matters to the masses.
Also SSO should be released with Lemmy 1.0.
Then you can just login with your Google account -
When this post is two days old and still on the very top of my feed you know that it's either a ghost town or the sorting algo doesn't work.
Except it's not 2 days old
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But if it doesn’t, then other instances removing the content on their side doesn’t federate. So you can either trust every instance that you federate with with your legal security, or you will have to moderate everything yourself as well, just in case someone missed something.
Sure, you're right there - but an instance that kept having problems with removing CSAM would find itself defederated.
This would be extremely important, but I don’t know if such a low level conceptual change can still be performed with a reasonable amount of work. Remember, for such a change you need to get every instance on board. That would be difficult now, and only more difficult later.
Well it would be built in from Lemmy or Piefed. The devs would have to spearhead it. But were the load ever to get to that point, I suspect that would be the obvious move.
No, it was specifically because of the moderation issue: https://lemmy.ca/post/45390962
Yes, so not financial. You seemed to be implying it was financial.
Sure, you’re right there - but an instance that kept having problems with removing CSAM would find itself defederated.
Depends... Imagine it also contains some of the most relevant communities and defederating would mean you lose users. That's not such an easy decision any more. Also, at that point hosting would likely be so expensive that for-profit instances would emerge, and for those defederating an important community wouldn't be such an easy choice either.
But it's not only CSAM. For example, there's illegal speech in quite a few parts of the world. In Germany, for example, a lot of nazi-related stuff is illegal. In russia or china some regime-critical speech is illegal. I wouldn't be too surprised if the US also joins this club sometime in the near future.
Actually, if you are a non US citizen and you and you want to travel to the USA, it's already troublesome if you are hosting a website with anti-Trump content.
That kind of stuff is unlikely to be deleted on the original instance if that instance isn't hosted in the same country.
Yes, so not financial. You seemed to be implying it was financial.
Sorry if that came across. I said lemm.ee was shutdown because of the scaling issue. I could have been more clear with that I meant the moderation scaling issues.
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Sorry, I misspoke. The largest instances of lemmy are have been defederated, specifically world and ml.
The only argument I'm making is that almost all defederation is negatively impactful to fediverse growth.
I disagree if the defederated instances are maladaptive and export bad behaviour.
In addition, I don't think lemmy.world or lemmy.ml have been defederated by anyone notable. The only example of lemmy.world being defederated, that I know, is beehaw.org. And I believe that Beehaw.org isn't interested in growth.
The fediverse is not a single amorphous bloc with the same overall goals of growth.
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Sure, you’re right there - but an instance that kept having problems with removing CSAM would find itself defederated.
Depends... Imagine it also contains some of the most relevant communities and defederating would mean you lose users. That's not such an easy decision any more. Also, at that point hosting would likely be so expensive that for-profit instances would emerge, and for those defederating an important community wouldn't be such an easy choice either.
But it's not only CSAM. For example, there's illegal speech in quite a few parts of the world. In Germany, for example, a lot of nazi-related stuff is illegal. In russia or china some regime-critical speech is illegal. I wouldn't be too surprised if the US also joins this club sometime in the near future.
Actually, if you are a non US citizen and you and you want to travel to the USA, it's already troublesome if you are hosting a website with anti-Trump content.
That kind of stuff is unlikely to be deleted on the original instance if that instance isn't hosted in the same country.
Yes, so not financial. You seemed to be implying it was financial.
Sorry if that came across. I said lemm.ee was shutdown because of the scaling issue. I could have been more clear with that I meant the moderation scaling issues.
Depends… Imagine it also contains some of the most relevant communities and defederating would mean you lose users. That’s not such an easy decision any more. Also, at that point hosting would likely be so expensive that for-profit instances would emerge, and for those defederating an important community wouldn’t be such an easy choice either.
I don't think that would save it, to be honest.
People would just clone the communities on other instances and rebuild.
I suspect eventually lemmy/piefed federation will not be automatic, but subject to approval.
But it’s not only CSAM. For example, there’s illegal speech in quite a few parts of the world. In Germany, for example, a lot of nazi-related stuff is illegal. In russia or china some regime-critical speech is illegal. I wouldn’t be too surprised if the US also joins this club sometime in the near future.
No-one cares what Russia or China thinks here. Germany? I mean, sure, but this is also a complication for any regulatory bodies trying to police social media sites. As "Lemmy" or "Piefed", as you know, are not singular entities.
Sorry if that came across. I said lemm.ee was shutdown because of the scaling issue. I could have been more clear with that I meant the moderation scaling issues.
Yeah, in part because they had a "no defederation" policy which came to bite them back.
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Can you make posts/comments criticizing china, russia and the various horrific shit perpetrated by dictators of said country?
My one issue with tankies is that. Otherwise I openly welcome leftist ideas.
Can you make posts/comments criticizing china, russia
If they're nuanced, yes. "China bad" is not accepted, but there's plenty of criticism of China in Hexbear. A Chinese member called Xiaohongshu routinely posts comments and critiques of Chinese policy, such as failing to leave neoliberalism behind and maintaining dollar hegemony for its own benefit. There's also been big criticism recently for the lack of material support to Venezuela against US imperialist invasion. What's not accepted is "vuvuzela no iPhone", "tinyman square" or "ruzzians are bloodthirsty orcs", and it's honestly refreshing.
I've discussed this at length, but I'll try and explain myself here too: the problem is not that Marxists don't want representation of the mistakes and bad policies that did happen in Actually Existing Socialist countries. The problem is that they're overmagnified and given extremely long coverage and attention whereas western atrocities, by all means much more violent and deadly, are just brushed off and not discussed. The problem is not that people discuss gulags and gulag victims, we should totally do that. The problem is that for every gulag museum there should be 10 colonialism museums because colonialism murdered hundreds of millions. Until there isn't this proportional representation, you must understand why Marxists are fed up with discussion exclusively of socialist bad policies.
