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  3. Why medieval city-builder video games are historically inaccurate - Leiden Medievalists Blog

Why medieval city-builder video games are historically inaccurate - Leiden Medievalists Blog

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  • H hailseitan@lemmy.world

    In a games community…

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    grantuseyes@lemmy.zip
    wrote last edited by
    #13

    Some of us like getting insight into the stuff that inspires the things we consume.

    1 Reply Last reply
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    • I it_depends_man@lemmy.world

      Pretty insightful. Key takeaways:

      1. linear growth didn't really happen like that
      2. pre-planning would be good
      3. experience of tax collectors skimming the surplus, plus hazards of rural life.
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      lad
      wrote last edited by
      #14

      Yeah, I thought life was hard but sustainable mostly, turns out one was always at risk of extinction:

      Medieval villagers were often living on the edge of subsistence. Agricultural surpluses were skimmed by the church and the feudal lords. Bad harvests, banditry, warfare and disease might decimate a village community at any time. For this very reason, the demography of many European villages remained relatively stable between the twelfth and the eighteenth century.

      L A 2 Replies Last reply
      8
      • S lad

        Yeah, I thought life was hard but sustainable mostly, turns out one was always at risk of extinction:

        Medieval villagers were often living on the edge of subsistence. Agricultural surpluses were skimmed by the church and the feudal lords. Bad harvests, banditry, warfare and disease might decimate a village community at any time. For this very reason, the demography of many European villages remained relatively stable between the twelfth and the eighteenth century.

        L This user is from outside of this forum
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        leftzero@lemmy.dbzer0.com
        wrote last edited by
        #15

        relatively stable between the twelfth and the eighteenth century

        Hm... wasn't there like a 33% dip back in the fourteenth, not counting subsequent migration to the cities and whatnot..?

        S 1 Reply Last reply
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        • D DrSleepless

          Video games aren’t supposed to be realistic, they’re supposed to be fun

          ValmondV This user is from outside of this forum
          ValmondV This user is from outside of this forum
          Valmond
          wrote last edited by
          #16

          Noo I want to spend 50 years before I can have a second well!

          1 Reply Last reply
          13
          • S lad

            Yeah, I thought life was hard but sustainable mostly, turns out one was always at risk of extinction:

            Medieval villagers were often living on the edge of subsistence. Agricultural surpluses were skimmed by the church and the feudal lords. Bad harvests, banditry, warfare and disease might decimate a village community at any time. For this very reason, the demography of many European villages remained relatively stable between the twelfth and the eighteenth century.

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            aqarius@lemmy.world
            wrote last edited by
            #17

            If I remember Devereaux, the village itself was set up to minimise that risk first and foremost, at the expense of optimisation for max yields. So, every year was around subsistence, never much above, but also never much lower.

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            • L leftzero@lemmy.dbzer0.com

              relatively stable between the twelfth and the eighteenth century

              Hm... wasn't there like a 33% dip back in the fourteenth, not counting subsequent migration to the cities and whatnot..?

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              lad
              wrote last edited by
              #18

              I don't know, we need a medievalist here

              L 1 Reply Last reply
              0
              • D DrSleepless

                Video games aren’t supposed to be realistic, they’re supposed to be fun

                ☂️-U This user is from outside of this forum
                ☂️-U This user is from outside of this forum
                ☂️-
                wrote last edited by
                #19

                realistic is sometimes fun

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                11
                • D DrSleepless

                  Video games aren’t supposed to be realistic, they’re supposed to be fun

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                  ilovepizza@lemmy.world
                  wrote last edited by
                  #20

                  Simulator then?

                  1 Reply Last reply
                  1
                  • Agent_KaryoA Agent_Karyo
                    This post did not contain any content.
                    JackbyDevJ This user is from outside of this forum
                    JackbyDevJ This user is from outside of this forum
                    JackbyDev
                    wrote last edited by
                    #21

                    This is a great article! It's really interesting.

                    I have two comments to make, and I hope nobody thinks this is me trying to disagree with the article or something, I don't want it to come across as defensive. In explaining some of the challenges medieval cities go through and saying Banished is a pretty accurate game, I think this might just be a genre issue. I consider Banished a colony management game, not a city builder, and indeed, in colony management games your people's health and safety are usually a much larger concern than in a city builder.

                    The second comment is that the writer suggests a game with flood mechanics and arable farm land. I don't remember if it was out in March of 2020, but Timberland is out now. It's a beaver based colony management game that includes a lot of fluid dynamics. It has flood mechanics like described. It's unrealistic, of course, because they're beavers. But also because flooding isn't the end of the world if it gets into your buildings, I think it's more of an inconvenience. Regardless, I think it's a cool game to check out.

                    Agent_KaryoA 1 Reply Last reply
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                    • S lad

                      I don't know, we need a medievalist here

                      L This user is from outside of this forum
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                      leftzero@lemmy.dbzer0.com
                      wrote last edited by
                      #22

                      Well, there was that little thing called the black death, if I recall correctly...

                      S 1 Reply Last reply
                      1
                      • JackbyDevJ JackbyDev

                        This is a great article! It's really interesting.

                        I have two comments to make, and I hope nobody thinks this is me trying to disagree with the article or something, I don't want it to come across as defensive. In explaining some of the challenges medieval cities go through and saying Banished is a pretty accurate game, I think this might just be a genre issue. I consider Banished a colony management game, not a city builder, and indeed, in colony management games your people's health and safety are usually a much larger concern than in a city builder.

                        The second comment is that the writer suggests a game with flood mechanics and arable farm land. I don't remember if it was out in March of 2020, but Timberland is out now. It's a beaver based colony management game that includes a lot of fluid dynamics. It has flood mechanics like described. It's unrealistic, of course, because they're beavers. But also because flooding isn't the end of the world if it gets into your buildings, I think it's more of an inconvenience. Regardless, I think it's a cool game to check out.

                        Agent_KaryoA This user is from outside of this forum
                        Agent_KaryoA This user is from outside of this forum
                        Agent_Karyo
                        wrote last edited by
                        #23

                        I am a big fan of Timberborn, but if we go all pedantic about it, Timberborn's flood mechanics aren't all that realistic.

                        A game that came somewhat close to realistic flood mechanics was Pharaoh/Cleopatra (1999/2000). Even though it used an abstract/statistical model (due to the technical limitations of the time), it felt a lot closer to reality than Timberborn even if there were some gamey elements like how well you respected Osiris.

                        JackbyDevJ 1 Reply Last reply
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                        • M murrayl@lemmy.world

                          Written in 2020 but still an interesting read. I wonder what the author thinks of games that have released in the intervening years, like Manor Lords, Going Medieval, and Farthest Frontier?

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                          sharkticon@lemmy.zip
                          wrote last edited by
                          #24

                          I am looking forward to Manor Lords when it gets released. Been tracking it for years.

                          1 Reply Last reply
                          1
                          • D DrSleepless

                            Video games aren’t supposed to be realistic, they’re supposed to be fun

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                            grueling_spool@sh.itjust.works
                            wrote last edited by
                            #25

                            Sure, but exploring the way games abstract reality can be interesting and worthwhile.

                            1 Reply Last reply
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                            • Agent_KaryoA Agent_Karyo

                              I am a big fan of Timberborn, but if we go all pedantic about it, Timberborn's flood mechanics aren't all that realistic.

                              A game that came somewhat close to realistic flood mechanics was Pharaoh/Cleopatra (1999/2000). Even though it used an abstract/statistical model (due to the technical limitations of the time), it felt a lot closer to reality than Timberborn even if there were some gamey elements like how well you respected Osiris.

                              JackbyDevJ This user is from outside of this forum
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                              JackbyDev
                              wrote last edited by
                              #26

                              I'm not saying they're realistic, just that it has some of the flood/farming mechanics the blog author wanted to see in a game.

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                              1
                              • Agent_KaryoA Agent_Karyo
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                                humanspiral@lemmy.ca
                                wrote last edited by
                                #27

                                Default difficulty... Certain wiping out of every living being in your village, and failure. Conclusions in article are fairly poor as they are "games are already designed smartly, and there's nothing that should be changed."

                                A good game concept would be to put the player as a "middle manager" with feudal lord as the client. The mission is how to best oppress the villagers in order to graduate to better employment: managing a bigger city.

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                                • L leftzero@lemmy.dbzer0.com

                                  Well, there was that little thing called the black death, if I recall correctly...

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                                  lad
                                  wrote last edited by
                                  #28

                                  Ah, yeah, there was, that's not how most of the time went, though

                                  1 Reply Last reply
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